Here's a dilemma that we're often faced with when people get involved with the police in various ways. Since we're all online, I'll choose a relevant scenario which follows.
Mr Z., whom I've known for several years, comes to see me in surgery in a very agitated state. He's just been arrested by the police and charged with downloading young teenage pornography from the internet onto his home computer. He's in a real state, very upset, nervous, and has an explanation for how it happened to be on his PC which involves another member of his family. He can't cope with he stress of it all and wants my help.
I don't see that you can do anything. It would be hard to say if he is really guilty or not sometimes we can know people for years and not know all there is to know about them . If he is your friend, and if he is innocent, then i hope it is prov-en , teenage porn is a horrible thing , i feel so sorry for those young kids.
If Mr Z knows who has downloaded .. he has an obligation to inform the police. If he doesn't he is just as guilty!! I would advise him to inform the police. If he is hesitant, that would be an indication that he is involved! Knowing that someone has downloaded teen or child porn onto my pc would infuriate me and I would take all the necessary action needed to see that person punished!
If he is not guilty then why is he so nervous? And has he told the police the explanation? I once bought a computer off someone and when the police came to tell me it was stolen and I had no idea of such a thing, I wasn't nervous at all as I had done nothing wrong.
Apart from him going to the police with the explanation there is nothing that you can do and I wouldn't get involved as you don't want it to reflect on you in any way.
I would have to agree with the ladies. If the guy is really innocent, he would work damn hard to prove it hence that would involve telling the police who really downloaded the porn.
I think in this instance, the only way you can probably help him is to refer him for some counselling or to a psychologist (psychiatrist to some extreme) and probably provide him with meds to calm him down? Is he in danger of suicide?
Apart from him going to the police with the explanation there is nothing that you can do and I wouldn't get involved as you don't want it to reflect on you in any way.
If it is his 13 year old son then he should explain that to the police. The child will no doubt get a rap over the knuckles and his father then should put a lot of blockers on his computer. If he is getting depressed he can only solve the problem by doing something about it. No drugs....LOL.
If it is his 13 year old son ... then he should definitely report it. If this kid is accessing these sites, can you imagine who is accessing his son???
Sounds like he is very highly stressed so he might need to be put on suicide watch or something.
If it is really his son, he has nothing to fear. He can talk to his son and explain the ramifications if he does not admit it to the police. Surely the police are not going to punish a hormonal 13 year old for downloading teenage porn?
Blockers and things don't work. My husband and his team has proven that in their research. There are ways of bypassing blockers. Kids are very tech savvy - they can even override security put in schools in computer systems.
If that is his son who uploaded , then the reason for that has to be found out. a) Is it just a curiousity or b) Is he interested in doing the same. Now he knows the situation he has to work with the police about the site.
I think the police have a reason for arresting him though!! A 13 year old boy is still a child .. and the parent is responsible. When Erin goes onto the PC I was always checking over her should to see what she is up to and she was 17!!!!
Now he knows the situation he has to work with the police about the site.
Usually if someone has child pornography on their PCs here, then they are eventually found guilty. The only person I recall getting off was Pete Townshend, who can afford a very expensive team of lawyers.
I think the police have a reason for arresting him though!! A 13 year old boy is still a child
Not sure about that...here in Australia, 12 is the statutory limit for not knowing what is wrong and what is right. We have had trouble prosecuting children under 12 here for crimes.
Mr Z's actions are those of a guilty man .... if it were his son, he would definitely be working with the police ... even if it were just to protect his son .... Goodness knows who has his information now!! Thats a pretty scary thought, especially in this day and age!! If my kid had accidently accessed a porn site, the cops would be the first people I contact!! As a parent though of such a young and impressionable child ... I would definitely have activated the child blocks!
Maybe the father is just blaming it on the boy? He is probably using his son as a fall guy in this case to get out of it? You just never know these things do you? He knows that it is normal for teenage boys to be looking at porm so he has a very good alibi there.
Mazza .... I am not too sure about the law here in the UK .... okay Giles has answered that .... I think the father is laying the blame on his son ... the fact that the kid had access without his knowledge doesn't sit too well with me ... if the boy was 18 or even older, perhaps then I could understand ...
I've seen it happen before in a different situation.
In that case, maybe the best thing you can do as a GP is to refer him to a psychologist or psychiatrist (probably the latter so he can get some valium or something to calm him down).
Mazza .... I am not too sure about the law here in the UK .... okay Giles has answered that .... I think the father is laying the blame on his son ... the fact that the kid had access without his knowledge doesn't sit too well with me ... if the boy was 18 or even older, perhaps then I could understand ...
Boys who come to us straight from primary school knows alot about sex etc.
We have had to deal with a number of incidences at school where year 7 girls giving oral sex to boys, hence the boys then annoy them for more and more.
We have had kids on transition programs from Primary school trying to access porns on our computers. Active supervision is what is needed everytime - blockers don't work. Kids can bypass blockers quite easily.
I agree Mazza ... sex is being discussed at a very young age now and I guess the inquisitive mind will explore it!! One cannot prevent that growth, but as a parent one can certainly monitor it! As you say .. active supervision!!
Yes, we had a five year old girl in Reception talking about oral sex and demonstrating it to the others at Oscar's nursery. When I'd heard the same story from several mothers there, all of who goddipped about it a lot but none of whom wanted to do anything, I did my civic duty and rang Social services t let them know a child wa sbeing exposed to sexual behaviour in some way.
I did my civic duty and rang Social services t let them know a child wa sbeing exposed to sexual behaviour in some way.
Well the child most definitely saw that somewhere!!! Deliberate or not, it has to be investigated! People in certain professions have to report anything suspicious to social services here (eg teachers, GPs etc) but I think it is everyone's responsibility. If they are concerned about something, they should tell.
I have read stories of children being sexually abuse in a paedophile ring that their parents belonged to. I read a very shocking book recently called "Damaged" by Cathy Glass. She is a woman who fostered a child whom that happened to. It took me a very long time to read it because it is so disturbing I had to put it down for a few days before reading it again. It is so emotionally envoking.
Oh Lord! If he didn't do anything of which he need be afraid of arrest, then he needs to prove it. If that involves a child, he needs to get help for the child, and that help begins with bringing it into the light. if the person is considered an adult, then he/.she must face the consequences of being foolish/predatory/whatever.
And having said all that, if the person is HIS child or near realative, that will be very hard to do!!!
The authorities will find the truth .. as long as he gives them his co-operation! If they talk to the child, they will be able to ascertain certain things ... and if it is the child ... perhaps a stern talking to and some future guide lines will suffice!!
I have 2 sons and me (so 3 accounts on one computer), it's possible his little perv was looking at teen porn and the dad would never know it if the kid had his own password. And really, a horny teen looking at porn isn't all that shocking. He's a minor looking at minors...doubtful he thinks of it as exploitation.
Why isn't he working with the police and telling them this? He could offer a polygraph to show them he's telling the truth!
Thanks for the clarification Giles then the fathere was taking advantage of what his son was doing and thats why he is inbad mood after being arrested. A friend of mine working in a kindergarden,had a case of girl at the age of 4 doing masturbation and the parents werent aware of it.The parents has to be very careful with their children.I think you have done the right thing.
Its sad really ... I agree kids are growing up a lot faster these days .. but there still have to be certain guide lines! A lad of 13 is all hormonal and is bound to experiment ... but I still believe Dad is partly to blame!
I can remember being 13...and how totally clueless I was. Times have changed drastically! Of course my parents did everything they could aside from locking us in an attic to keep us clueless, and that can be bad too. My sister and I tried to figure out how sex worked once...and we couldn't figure it out. It never occured to us what parts were for hahaha. (sad)
The whole situation looks a bit fishy to me too - meaning that the father has a guilty concience probably, so...to actually help his son, he should cooperate with the police. He wouldnt be that nervous if he told the truth. Its a very difficult situation to deal with, especially for you now, and I think personally that the police has to do the job and get through to the father. The boy probably knew he was doing the wrong thing (if thats the truth), so the father just has to come clean here.
We only have what the Father said, not what the son said or the police know. We dont have the whole story. Given the situation one of them is going to be the fall guy. The father could be guilty because he did it or guilty because he now feels he should have been a more vigilant father. He could be Nervous because the consequence could mean a whole slew of things for himself- loss of job, face, reputation and jailtime or Hes nervous cause the boy is young with his whole life ahead of him and marks such as these scar for life. Either way, the only way out is to co-operate with the Police. What you should do? Tell him the truth. That no matter what he explains to you, the situation demands that he talk to the police.
What can you do other than treat his depression? You have his word for it... which may, or may not, be true. It's probably best to let the court decide his guilt. As for the boy, if he did do it, he's just demonstrating normal curiosity. Boys of 13 have always sought out pornography, there's nothing inherently wrong with that. Unfortunately, because of the net, it's no longer a copy of Playboy.
Just out of interest, how do you stand as far as patient confidentiality goes. For example, if someone where to come to you and actually admit a crime, are you bound by law to report it? Or is doctor/patient confidentiality sacred?
I don't think times have changed that much at all. The only difference now is that it's no longer hidden. Convents were always full of underage girls waiting out the term of their pregnancy. The babies were put up for adoption and the girls returned home after a "holiday" with a distant relative and no one other than the immediate family were the wiser.
What did you mean by not yet? So the possibility of him committed a suicide is there you mean? O my... Ummm...
What should you do?
You are the one who knows both him and yourself - the principle you have towards other people and how to act/react most especially when it comes to messing up with the law, is clear. What is right and what is wrong - it is as it is.
Do what is the right thing for you to do and hold on to it.
What can you do other than treat his depression? You have his word for it... which may, or may not, be true. It's probably best to let the court decide his guilt.
Ah ha! At last someone's telling the doctor what to do. Yes, I'd have to treat him like any other patient who says he's suffering from depresson.
Just out of interest, how do you stand as far as patient confidentiality goes. For example, if someone where to come to you and actually admit a crime, are you bound by law to report it? Or is doctor/patient confidentiality sacred?
No, it's definitely not sacred. If a crime has been committed it has to be disclosed, as does anything else which may be a danger to the safety of membes of the public. So if someone tells me he's committed murder, which people sometimes do because they think it's as sacred as a confessional, then I tell the police--after he's left the room so I don't get murdered as well. If people are driving with vision which doesn't meet the legal criteria in spite of having been warned they need to let the licensing authority know, I warn them I'm going to do it and then report them. Ditto people with severe memory problems, people who I know are drinking and driving, taking drugs and driving, lying about whether or not they have collected a prescription for a controlled drug etc
Ah ha! At last someone's telling the doctor what to do. Yes, I'd have to treat him like any other patient who says he's suffering from depresson.
Hmmmm....yes...well I guess this is true. I never really thought of it from this medical point of view. But of course, the doctor is right (and the lawyer I guess). Good luck with it all Giles.
Good afternoon Giles. Ive followed this discussions, and now for sure I know you are a gp thats caring and strict, following the law in cases like you mentioned. Im glad, and hope this matter here will be solved soon. Have a lovely afternoon!
I certainly hope that if he is innocent and it was indeed his son, that there is a way to prove this and vindicate him. Maybe you can give him something to calm his nerves.
Pornography is a dangerous thing -- Ted Bundy, famous serial killer, talked with Dr. James Dobson before he died and detailed how dabbling in pornography led to his objectifying and dehumanizing women. It's been well-documented.
Sorry... I'm a little confused about this comment. What, has in fact, been well-documented? Ted Bundy's admission that he was into porn or that pornography leads to murder?
If you meant the latter... I'd have some serious objection to you claiming it's been well-documented.
There are common characteristics of serial killers: one being that they are intensely interested from an early age in voyeurism, fetishism, and sadomasochistic pornography. In 1984 the FBI presented the 10 common characteristics in a paper presented to the International Association of Forensic Sciences. Other characteristics include: over 90 percent of them are white males, they tend to be intelligent, with IQs in the "bright normal" range, however, despite their high IQs, they do poorly in school, have a hard time holding down jobs etc.. They hate their fathers. They hate their mothers. They have a high rate of suicide attempts. And there are other common characteristics.
I don't think that glynisp meant that pornography leads to murder, but it is well-documented that an interest in pornography is a common characteristic in serial killers. I only say it's well documented because I have read many articles and books on true crime. I would suppose if someone did not have an interest - a person may not be aware of this information.
There have also been studies done on how pornography can be damaging:
True, there has always been sex and curiosity at a young age. But the difference in today's society is that porn is more readily available for curious eyes via the internet.
Illegal porn, I don't think that is as easily accessible to the average 13 year old. I am not talking about the regular porn out there, almost anyone can see that, but the hardcore, pedophile stuff, I think a teenage boy would need some type of connection- be it an older adult, another friend, etc to really access and download that type of porn. Most of the child pornography is traded at hidden levels on the internet, so to think an average 13 year could access that type of porn is difficult, but NOT impossible to believe.
The investigation will reveal as to how the pornography was downloaded. It most likely didn't come free, and if a credit card was used, you can certainly bet it will lead to a conviction.
I think this had to be some really hardcore pedophile porn for the police to make a arrest.
Those are just my thoughts. I think Mr. Z should have reason to worry.
Well yes, Giles, I did a 3 part blog recently on a murder that happened in my own neighborhood block when I was a little girl. It affected me greatly, so to this day, I read true crime stories/books. If a book reveals that a murder was solved, and that the killer was caught and persecuted, I get satisfaction from the justice being served. Sadly, there is no real justice for the victim and a victim's family, but still I am fascinated by the investigation process in solving a crime.
I don't believe this arrest was made lightly. I am telling you that this had to be some really hard core pedophile type of porn. Here is an interesting statistic here in the United States, U.S. Attorney Bob Balfe stated that 85 percent of those we persecuted for child pornography are also child molesters.
It will be interesting to find out where this case leads.
85 percent of those we persecuted for child pornography are also child m
Very likely. It's a learned behaviour, so I wouldn't be surprised if 100% the molesters were molested themselves. It's no excuse at all for perpetuating the behaviour though.
I could never understand why somebody who was molested would ever do a horrible thing like that to another child! It is not an excuse - honestly, they should know better!
Hmmmmmmmmmmm. After some discussions with other people, we were just wondering about a few things:
- When Mr. Z says teenage porn - does he mean 18+? In the legal porn world - movies with 18 to 21 year olds are considered teenage porn (don't ask me why!)
- Also, cops would normally need a whole lot of information to arrest individuals accessing illegal materials (eg. child porn). In most cases, those arrested would have entered credit card details etc.
- If his computer did access illegal porn material (not talking about copyrighted ones here), was it deliberate? Whether we like it or not, we have no control about what we are accessing when we click on links etc (filters don't work). There are hidden embedded links in most web pages that people access and even if you did not choose to open pages, it gets logged into your computer. If this is the case, he needs to hire a very good technical professional, along with a very good lawyer.
- Also, horrible as it maybe. Sometimes, police get a backlog of materials to process with these things so if they haven't processed his computer within 12 months, he gets away with it. This is how vile pedophiles get away with it.
It is a weird world - just today, a man in Tasmania was arrested for having downloaded pictureof people having sexy time with an octopus and other animals (see my blog). Could it get any weirder?
Wow, how did I miss this one. It has raised some real emotions and thinking here that sometimes people like to put in the back of their minds. I work for Family and Community Services, so I see many patterns and effects on children and adults from pornography. It is heartbreaking on most occasions.
Here in the US they have run sting operations in chatrooms that have allowed them to arrest those who have fallen into the trap of child pornography. It is interesting to me that some of these men claim to be first time offenders, that they have never done anything like this before. I know one gentleman in particular that happened to, and he even took a series of lie detector test to prove that he had never had any thoughts of being with a child...the test proved he was telling the truth.
His claim was, that the computer life is NOT Reality to so many. That people fulfill their fantasies through the computer and although he messengered with a person claiming to be a 14 year old girl, after talking to her on the phone he felt it was an older woman and that she was enticing him by acting the part of a 14 year old girl. He arranged to meet the girl and boom...he was arrested before he ever entered the house or knocked on the door.
Although he claims he thought it to be an older woman playing a role, the thought still remains with me...if it had been a 14 year old girl and he hadn't have been caught...then what? The person clearly stated they were 14 years old! There is always a first time for everything and I think if you put yourself in those vulnerable situations you have the chance of falling into that behavior.
As for your gentleman, I think you must treat him for the depression he has come to you with. You have no obligation to report anything, for he is already being questioned by legal authorities, unless of course he confesses to you that he was the one into child pornography. Depression can cause irrational thinking, so he must be kept at a rational state in order to deal with this issue properly.
I would think the legal authorities would have had just cause to search his computer. I'm not so sure about child porn being hidden or hard to get to. I think most sting operations here with legal authorities are done through chatrooms, and how hidden is that?
I have to disagree that it hasn't changed over time, I think the computer has opened a whole new can of worms as far as pornography whether it is adult or child. I think good people get caught in vulnerable situations through viewing things in the safety of their own homes thinking that no one will ever know, and finding themselves doing things they wouldn't typically do.
Whether it is the adult or the boy and this is being done in secret, then that provides a sense to me that they are aware it is wrong. Hiding something such as this may only increase the interest in doing it more and increasing the problem. I could understand the parent logging in to check on what his son is doing, but then to not confront it, or take measures to clear their computer of it, makes me wonder the intent.
If Mr Z knows who has downloaded .. he has an obligation to inform the police. 
